He will come in the clouds look at Acts 1:10-11, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 6:15-17. The order of things, Read Matthew 24:1-31, Mark 13:1-31, Luke 21:5-36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, look at 1 Corinthians 15:50-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. Now looking at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 look at verse 7, some use this to say that the church is the restrainer, well for one thing the church is the bride of Christ not a he, and it is not the holy spirit because the holy spirit is still working through the tribulation, and besides it is not his function. The answer is Michael the great prince look at Daniel 12:1 also they like to use 1 Thessalonians 5:9 where it says "for God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." ok where do they get the idea that this is talking about us being raptured out of here. Look at 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and a really nice one is Titus 2:13, where, well if you think about it, if we are (out of here) than why are we looking for the glorious appearing, of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, which is by the way not a secret appearing. This should be enough to get the point across. Rev 12:1-17 The woman is Israel, look at (54:5-6; jer 3:6-8; 31:32; ezek 16:32; hos 2:16) The male child is Jesus. Israel, is often pictured as a mother giving birth(is 26:17-18; 54:1; 66:7; hos 13:13; mic 4:10; 5:2-3; matt 24:8), the suffering of Israel and her long wait for the Messiah. satan and his worldly domination and a third of the angels were cast out of heaven to earth where he stood waiting for the time when Israel would give birth to the Messiah so he could kill it just at its birth, look at what Herod did by killing all male children from 2 years under in order to kill the Messiah. Jesus was born and died and was raised from the dead and ascended into Heaven. A time, times and half a time is three and a half years of false peace and protection, then in the middle of the seven years of peace set up by the antichrist he breaks the peace agreement by standing in the holy of holies and proclaims himself to be God and makes war with Israel and the church. War in Heaven, satan cast out and now the accuser is no longer making accusations against Gods people. Gods people overcame satan through the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony, to a point where they are willing to give their lives for their faith. satan knows his time is short and he must deceive as many people and nations as he can. Their will be war against Israel and a great army will come against Her like a flood, but the earth will open up and swallow the armies who have come against Her. Now whether this is an actual earthquake or reference to the nations who side with Israel coming against the nations who are against Israel I don't know. satan will then come against her offspring, the followers of Christ both Jew and Gentile. A time of testing and weeding out of those who are true Christians and those who are not because this is a tribulation like none other and to be Christian will mean certain death. But like with Christ death is not the end but a glorious beginning. satan will make it so that everybody must worship him and take his mark or you will not be able to buy or sell or have any commerce without the mark (Babylon) and you will be put to death, this is three and a half years of tribulation for those who do not take the mark of the beast and bow down to worship him. This is an interesting thought where in Rev 11:1-19 the two witnesses could be symbolic of the church where for three and a half years the church will prophesy, and in Rev 11:5, God will destroy those who harm his bride, and in Rev 11:6, the plagues that will come on the earth during the last days and in Rev 11:7, the antichrist will rule and kill Jews and Christians and whoever does not take his mark and worship him, and in Rev 11:8, the dead bodies of Gods people His elect will lay in the streets for everybody to see, it will even be televised Rev 11:9, for three and a half years, the world will be so hard towards the Christians Rev 11:10, that they will rejoice over them and celebrate because they are dead. But after three and a half years of blood shed and tribulation towards the Christians God will cause the dead in Christ to rise first Rev 11:11, and we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meat the Lord in the air Rev 11:12, while everybody watches the departure. Then in Rev 11:13 you have a great earthquake. Now look at Rev 11:15 and compare it to Rev 10:7, where the seventh angle is (about) to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, look at 1 Cor 15:51-58. In Rev 11:15-17, the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign for ever and ever. Then after a thousand years of his reign Rev 11:18, you have the dragon released to deceive the nations again and another war, the war of Gog and Magog where nations will come against God, but he will win the battle and the devil will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. Judgment will commence, at the great white throne and the books will be opened the book of life where if your name is not found in it than you will be thrown into the lake of fire. For more on this look at Rev 19,20,21,22. and the books of Ezek and Dan. thank you. Rev 13:1-10 the dragon is satan and the beast is the antichrist, Rev 13:11-18 is concerning the false prophet. look at Revelation 14:6-13, you have the gospel being proclaimed to the people on the earth, than fallen Babylon and you have the warning against worshiping the beast and receiving the mark of the beast, which is of course after the antichrist has proclaimed himself to be God and making it mandatory for everybody to take the mark, and if not, than you die, and then the call for endurance of the saints and the blessing of the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Revelation 14:12, is the last time you have a call for endurance of the saints. Look at Revelation 15:2-4 you have the saints in heaven who have overcome the beast and the number of his name, and are coming out of the tribulation, which is the same as Revelation 7:13-17, so the Holy spirit is still working during the tribulation. Reaping the earth's harvest in Rev 14:14-20 is the same as the saints who are to grow together with the people that are perishing until the harvest, look at Matthew 3:12 and Matthew 13: 24-30; Matthew 13: 36-43, also look at Revelation 13:7-10 and Revelation 7:14, these are the same as Rev 19:1-10, and Rev 18:4, and Rev 20:4-6. In Revelation 16:12-16 you have the kings being gathered together to the place called Armageddon, also look at Rev 14:17-20. Look at Rev 16:15, I am coming so be ready. I do see where the rapture and the second coming is taking place, but is it as we think? it would seem that the rapture in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and Matt 24:30-31 and Rev 14:14-16, and Rev 19:6-16, are the same where Christ is coming on the clouds, and the church is raptured, but first we must be changed look at 1 Cor 15:51-53, the dead will rise first and we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will ever be with the Lord. (The questions I have is are we passing the Lord in transit, while He is coming and we are going. but is this the coming that is in Rev 19:11-21 and do we become the armies or are we among the armies or perhaps we have nothing to do with the armies of Heaven that come against the kings and generals and mighty men that fight against the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Who are the armies of Heaven? is it just Angelic beings? I know that when we are changed we do not become angels. Look at Rev 17:14, are we the called, chosen and faithful followers? are we raptured just to come back to earth before we actually leave the atmosphere? and what about Rev 19:6-16). One thing is for sure it is not happing before the tribulation. In Revelation 17, and 18, Babylon where the economy is lucrative and the rich get richer, the sinful adultery ridden, greedy materialistic seat of the antichrist pulling everybody in through the promise of the good life if you will only bow down and worship him and take his mark. Look at Rev 18:4 a call for the people of God to come out of her and be separate, lest you fall for her lies and receive of her plagues. The fall of Babylon is the collapse of the economy set up by the antichrist, and or the city itself is in ruin because of war, look at Rev 18:17-20, and Look at Rev 6:5-6. Look at Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 7:13-17 and Rev 12:11 and Rev 15:1-4 and Rev 20:4-6 these are the people in Heaven who are coming out of the tribulation and have not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark, also Look at Rev 19:1-10. this is it dude, the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride (the church) has passed through the time of testing and made herself ready, (this could be the rapture). Revelation 17:14 is future tense which will take place in Revelation 19:11-16. Than you have the great supper of God, in which the birds are called together to eat the flesh of the kings, and generals, and mighty men, their horses and their riders and the flesh of all people, in Revelation 19:17-21. Than in Revelation 20:1-6 you have the dragon which is satan being bound and thrown in the abyss for a 1000 years. And the souls of those who had been beheaded, because of their testimony for Jesus and had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands, come to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. As you can tell by reading these scriptures their is no secret coming to whisk the church out before the tribulation. Yes we will face a great and terrible time of testing, history has shown and is still showing even today that Christians have had to undergo testing, and God has allowed these things to happen, and for good reason, but He has always been with us through these times of testing and He will be with us through the great tribulation as well. You must understand that we gentile Christians have been grafted in to the family of God as gods chosen people look at Romans 11:11-24. Also realize that the saints are to grow together with the people that are perishing until the harvest, look at Matthew 3:12 and Revelation 14:14-16 and Matthew 13: 24-30; Matthew 13: 36-43, also look at Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 7:14. This is a test, a time of testing, and no better time than the great tribulation, look at Revelation 2:10-11; Revelation 3:10-13, the "from the hour" can also mean in the Greek either "keep you from undergoing" or "keep you through." The narrow door to Heaven and the broad path to destruction, Matthew 7:13-23 and Luke 13:22-30. Also their is a calling for the endurance of the saints to the end in Matthew 24:13; Mark 13:13; Luke 21:19; Revelation 13:7-10; Revelation 14:9-13. The restrainer spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is Michael not the church look in Daniel 12:1-4, and Rev 12:7, and of course it is not the Holy Spirit because for one thing that is not His function and also the Holy Spirit is still working during the tribulation, look at Revelation 7:13-14. In some of the passages above you will read of a trumpet sound, well also look at Revelation 10:7. Interesting reading is in the book of Ezekiel chapters 36,37,38,39 and Daniel chapters 7,8,9,10,11,12 all details concerning the end times. The Lord will appear, Col 3:4; 1 Peter 5:4; 1 John 2:28; 1 John 3:2; 1 Peter 1:7; 1 Tim 6:14; 2 Tim 4:1; Matt 24:30; Revelation 1:7; 1 Thess 4:16; Matt 24:27; Luke 9:26; Acts 1:10-11; Rev 6:15-17. The day of the Lord 1 Cor 5:5; 2 cor 1:14; 1 Th 5:2; Rom 2:5; 2 Pet 2:9; Acts 2:20; 2 Pet 3:1-18; Isa 13:6,9; Joel 2:1,11,31; Joel 3:14; Am 5:18,20; Obadiah 15; Zep 1:7,14; Zec 14:1; Malachi 4:5 sometimes abbreviated as "that day" Day of redemption Eph 4:30. The day of God 2 Pet 3:12; Revelation 16:14. Day of Christ 1 Co 1:8; 1 Cor 5:5; Php 1:6; Php 2:16; 1Th 5:2; Am 5:18; . Last day John 6:39-54; John 7:37; John 11;21-27; John 12:48 Great day Jude 6. The day 2 Th 1:1-12. A good read is Isaiah chapters 24-66, Joel, Zechariah and Malachi. And their are many more passages but enough of that the whole idea of the rapture taking place before the tribulation just is not in the bible and it got started sometime in history, but really took off in the 1800's and it sounded good to the people so they kept it. Titus 2:13, This is what we are waiting for. 1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, 1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience, 1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods which God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 1Ti 4:4 For every creation of God is good, and nothing to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving. 1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified through the Word of God and prayer. 2Ti 3:1 Know this also, that in the last days grievous times will be at hand. 2Ti 3:2 For men will be self-lovers, money-lovers, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 2Ti 3:3 without natural affection, unyielding, false accusers, without self-control, savage, despisers of good, 2Ti 3:4 traitors, reckless, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 2Ti 3:5 having a form of godliness, but denying the power of it; even turn away from these. 2Ti 4:3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear. 2Ti 4:4 And they will turn away their ears from the truth and will be turned to myths. 2Ti 4:5 But you watch in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fully carry out your ministry. 1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard the Deposit, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of falsely-named science, 1Ti 6:21 which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen. 2Pe 3:3 First, knowing this, that there will come in the last days scoffers walking according to their own lusts 2Pe 3:4 and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. 2Pe 3:5 For this is hidden from them by their willing it, that the heavens were of old, and the earth out of the water, and through water, being held together by the Word of God, 2Pe 3:6 through which the world that then was, being flooded by water, perished. 2Pe 3:7 But the present heavens and the earth being kept in store by the same Word, are being kept for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 2Pe 3:8, But beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2Pe 3:9, The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a rushing noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works in it will be burned up. 2Pe 3:11 Then, all these things being about to be dissolved, what sort ought you to be in holy behavior and godliness, 2Pe 3:12 looking for and rushing the coming of the Day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will melt away, and the elements will melt, burning with heat? 2Pe 3:13 But according to His promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, looking for these things, be diligent, spotless, and without blemish, to be found by Him in peace. 2Pe 3:15 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation (as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him 2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction). 2Pe 3:17 Therefore, beloved, knowing beforehand, beware lest being led away with the error of the lawless, you fall from your own steadfastness. 2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

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