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61
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 8:06am
Subject: Re: Some initial thoughts 		idojc
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Nick:

>Can an isolating language be said to have infinitives?
>
>The phrase actually started out as "A small child
>crying due to falling in the play ground" with
>"falling" being a gerund.

This is the point i have always made on Auxlang: that the infinitive is
really more of a formal than a functional concept. The functions of the
infinitive form seem to vary from language to language. The sentence we are
using as an example has an infinitive in Ido:

La mikra infanto ploranta pro falar/falir en la ludeyo

This is why i think it would best to just use the common ground form of the
verb in all such situations. As i say, J provided 'tu' in Novial in case it
was needed, but in practice it was hardly used, and was later dropped. I
will see if i can dig out some relevant discussions from Novialiste.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=D9yFr5UGovkIaxoF1Bi2bMYBXNqDUNG1WSgRgGWqWo-Bwbta3sKWApOEc35ITlNkA_zi6V94AA
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62
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 8:38am
Subject: Articles 		idojc
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In the creole prototype there are two articles, definite and indefinite.
There are two fundamental distinctions made when applying them:

[+/-presupposed] and [+/-specific]

These give rise to three cases:

[+presupposed][+specific] - definite article
[-presupposed][+specific] - indefinite article
[-presupposed][-specific] - no article

I dont think there is any doubt about the usefulness of a definite article
(for which i have proposed 'li' < Nov/Occ). The only question is whether we
should enforce the [+/-specific] distinction. This distinction is not
actually made in Eng, and it is not always easy to decide whether an NP is
specific or not:

I bought a banana
The postman brought me a letter this morning

Are 'a banana' and 'the postman' specific NPs? I doubt whether this
distinction can be enforced in an IAL, since it is probably not made
consistently in many noncreoles.

In creoles the pluralizer is compulsory with the def. art. Similarly i am
not sure we need to insist on this in an IAL, but this is probably something
we need to debate.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=NSvSnAPir4bZcD1jzBKEEZZpGUMDXvCiXlJUn5FSsnqckImWG5fq3gSdPr6tgnaRvw10Ro4CHULl
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63
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 9:14am
Subject: Genitive 		idojc
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The general method for the genitive is with the preposition 'de':

Li libro ban de John
'John's books'

However, it is useful to have a more concise method with pronouns. Creoles
tend to use the unmodified pronoun before the noun. Consider:

Li kasa de li amike de li patro de mi

This is very cumbersome, and much better would be:

Li kasa de li amike de mi patro
'My father's friend's house'

Of course, the preposition method should still be available with pronouns.

Btw, if anyone is wondering why i dont just take Glosa 'plu' as the
pluralizer, it is because this form is needed for the comparative:

plu bon - better
min bon - not as good (or 'non tam bon')

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=WY7u1mLP-UXrrf7pBAmGVx1MBDIY5JbtvQndmZQ21hzj55TqdR1Uf9ODmoSG54ICJozRxiMfS3c
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64
From: Nicholas Hempshall <nick_hempshall@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 10:08am
Subject: Re: Articles 		nick_hempshall
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James Chandler wrote:
> I dont think there is any doubt about the usefulness
> of a definite article

Can you just run through the reasons the definite
article is usefulness?

Many languages get by without one, and rely on 'this',
'that', 'your', 'my' etc, when context doesn’t make it
obvious.

Nick


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65
From: "fasilinguo" <fasilinguo@yahoo.es>
Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 9:06am
Subject: Hello, James. 		fasilinguo
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Hello, James Chandler.
I'm Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo.
You can be very quiet; I don't intend mining this list, Eurocreole, nor
founding "rival" lists about Eurocreole.
Rather, please tell me: Are yet ready an outline on Eurocreole,
available in the Files section?
Thanks, Alexandre.
66
From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@smart.net>
Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 4:31pm
Subject: Taking My Leave 		bartlett@smart.net
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{Crossposted to Europidgin, Eurocreole, and Auxlang mailing lists.}

I have decided to discontinue participation in efforts to construct
a new or significantly modified international auxiliary language (such
as Europidgin and Eurocreole) based on the Indo-European (I-E) languages
of Europe and their diasporas. I have come to the conclusion that such
efforts are no more likely to be fruitful than other similar efforts in
the past if language characteristics alone are all that people pay
attention to.

Richard K. Harrison has remarked, cogently I think, that the supply
of IALs far exceeds the demand. (Indeed, how much REAL demand, as
opposed to wishful thinking and projection, is there?) Nevertheless,
there are those who seem to think, like the alchemists of old, that they
will be undaunted in the face of the failures of others. All they need
to do is blend the right ingredients in the right proportions and
success will be theirs. (An analogy thanks to Andrew Large.) I do not
think that such further efforts have much more likelihood of success
than past efforts.

There is not and never will be any sort of "perfect language" among
constructed international auxiliary languages. One person's "necessary
feature" is another person's "fatal flaw." People can and will go on
arguing half way to forever and not come to an agreement on the features
a conIAL "needs" to have.

As for conIALs deliberately targeted to the I-E diaspora languages
of Europe, we already have enough. Neo, Ido, Eurolengo, Eurolang,
Occidental, LsF Interlingua, IALA Interlingua, Lingua Franca Nova,
Intal, and on and on. We simply do not need any more candidates. Good
enough is good enough, and I submit that any of those languages is good
enough as an IAL for I-E European-speaking peoples.

Some people on two of these lists are seeking a sort of pidgin-like
or creole-like language on an isolating model (more or less, at least).
I submit that if the IAL under design is for "WENSA"-speaking peoples,
then a strictly isolating grammar is not necessarily at an advantage.
All of the Indo-European languages, including English, have at least
some inflections, so an inflectional languge is hardly a novelty,
especially if the inflections are few and completely regular. I simply
do not see how in such an instance a purely isolating grammar would be
any more advantageous, or be considered any simpler, than an
inflectional grammar as simple as those of some of the languages I
mentioned above, such as Lingua Franca Nova (since that is the starting
point for the Europidgin list).

And, although I do not have firsthand knowledge, I suspect that the
non-I-E languages of Europe (Lappish, Estonian, Finnish, Magyar, Basque)
also have some inflectional or agglutinative morphology, so that an
isolating grammar will not necessarily be at a great advantage in terms
of familiarity (and learnability) over one with a few simple and regular
inflections. Why is an independent particle somehow necessarily simpler
and easier to learn and use than a regular inflection? I am no longer
convinced that it is. If a constructed auxiliary language's phonology,
phonotactics, orthography, morphology, and possibly even syntax can be
learned by an intelligent person in a few hours, then what difference
does it make whether one uses a particle or an inflection?

This point holds with respect to European languages and their
diasporas, which seem to be the focus of the Eurocreole and Europidgin
mailing lists, from which I am unsubscribing. We simply do not need any
more such IAL projects. We have more than enough already.

The real issue, as I see it, is that in the end, history seems to
show that characteristics of morphology and syntax to some degree are
really rather secondary when it comes to acceptance and use of an
auxiliary language, at least for European and diaspora target users --
or others, for that matter. (Consider Koine Greek, Aramaic, Akkadian,
and Arabic as successful auxiliary languages of the past, and not just
Lingua Franca, Russonorsk, and Chinook Jargon.) A more pressing matter
is how to get ANY such constructed auxiliary language into widespread
acceptance and use, not whether it has this or that participial ending
(or maybe none at all). THIS is where the real effort needs to be
concentrated, in my opinion, and not never-ending tinkering and
fiddling. Tinkering and fiddling may be fun and entertaining, and there
is nothing wrong with having fun and being entertained, but they
probably have little to do with getting an IAL accepted and used.

Of course, once it comes down to getting any one IAL accepted and
used, there is the issue of which one, because diffferent people will
favor different languages. And that is a problem for which I myself
have no real answer except to say, pick one and promote it, and if you
get others to make the same choice, so much the better for your
candidate. But in any case, I have decided to discontinue participation
in efforts to create or modify any new west-Indo-European-based (often
largely Romance-based) IALs.

Please note two things: I am referring to _a_posteriori_ European-
based IALs and to a European (and diaspora) target audience. If one
wants to make serious efforts with respect to a global, as opposed to
a European, target audience or with respect to an _a_priori_ language
(which, please note, does not necessarily mean a classificatory scheme
such as Ro or Real Character, but could be something more along the
lines of Sona or Suma or even aUI), then I might have some interest.

--
Paul Bartlett
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=q_67mbZbOWTs4N_RKkHT0EoaQjCMSSW8e1uqtZrHHcg_CS_VZYjlBQ7wNmMQxifFC0MBUukZ5YI5-Mg
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67
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:23am
Subject: Re: Articles 		idojc
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Nick:

>Can you just run through the reasons the definite
>article is usefulness?
>Many languages get by without one, and rely on 'this',
>'that', 'your', 'my' etc, when context doesn’t make it
>obvious.

If we have only a def. art., then we are making only one distinction, but
based on two separate criteria, ie.

[+presupposed][+specific] vs.
[-presupposed][-specific]

It is true that not all languages make even this distinction. However,
while not slavishly following the creole prototype, nor do I want to move
too far from it. Esp and Ido both have a def. art., and i have not seen any
evidence that speakers of languages which lack it find it particularly
difficult to acquire. It does have a useful distinguishing role, which as
you say could perhaps be assumed by demonstratives as in Chinese. But it
does not seem necessary to do without it unless it makes the language much
more difficult.

I am not absolutely wedded to having a def. art., i just think it is in
keeping with the creoloid as opposed to pidginoid character of the system,
eg. using TMA particles rather than just adverbs.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=MYmZMtLchh7CYz0iaP8tj89paL_qkRGdyK7PTTYuylevHGhOF-CjQOemNA8s8xPGj-qDoZQtAek
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68
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:28am
Subject: Re: Hello, James. 		idojc
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Alexandre:

> You can be very quiet; I don't intend mining this list, Eurocreole,
>nor
>founding "rival" lists about Eurocreole.
> Rather, please tell me: Are yet ready an outline on Eurocreole,
>available in the Files section?

A good question, Alexandre, but you are jumping the gun a bit. I intend to
put together a description of the framework I am explaining on the list, but
only when I have finished giving the basic outline. I expect to do this in
the next couple of days, but I cannot give a date when the description will
be available online, as I have other commitments at the moment.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=ch3p9dcgH7TeI88dDV59mksqktNmPQyDUjliIxlr56dfSZWCB0iCZptyw0JKDM-cO3fh91RUkg
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69
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:49am
Subject: Other verbal moods 		idojc
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There are three moods which are necessary but are outside the central TMA
system (in which, you may recall, there is only one mood, conditional).
These are imperative, hortative and optative.

Jespersen and de Wahl really did the groundwork in this respect. For the
imperative no special marker is necessary, and we may use the simple ground
form of the verb:

Halta!
'Stop!'

Non pensa pri to
'Dont think about that'

It is particularly handy in emergencies to be able to utter a simple verb.
For the hortative we have Novial 'let' (< Eng,Scan) and Occ 'las' (< Fr). I
tend to prefer the latter on phonetic grounds, and also on grounds of
internationality, but I must admit there is not much to choose between them.

Las nos pren 'las' provisore por nos sistem
'Lets take 'las' provisionally for our system'

For the optative we have Novial 'mey', which i would prefer to take in the
form 'mei' (since diphthongs wont end in semivowels in our system):

Mei li fem reje regna longi tem!
'Long may the queen reign!'

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=1v9RhdEXkc68m2GvWfuW9cB_hCaXxzXWx0eeNhd_I-Mh36P8zdov7KCGEBjvOFmkrO8tqjxBA80
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70
From: "fasilinguo" <fasilinguo@yahoo.es>
Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:18am
Subject: Re: Hello, James. 		fasilinguo
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Hola, James.
Como te he dicho, no pienso "hacer la competencia" a tu lista de
eurocriollo con listas similares que tengan el castellano como lengua de
trabajo.
Ahora bien, comprender este mensaje se te hace bastante difícil, a pesar
de que es corto, de que hablas esperanto e ido (dos lenguas con muchas
raíces neolatinas) y de que has estudiado algo de castellano. ¿Verdad que te
resulta difícil? Pues imagínate lo que nos cuesta, a los hablantes
habituales de castellano, entender el inglés que habláis aquí. Tal como va
la lista hasta ahora, saber inglés es una condición indispensable para
tratar el europidgin en ella. Eso implica que más de cinco mil millones de
personas en todo el mundo no pueden intervenir aquí, incluso si simpatizan
con la idea del eurocriollo.
Y si creéis aquí que todos los que chapurrean inglés como lengua
secundaria van a entender abreviaturas como "TMA", os equivocáis mucho.
En general: si para idear una lengua planificada auxiliar hay que
aprender previamente inglés, se da la paradoja de que esa lengua planificada
es superflua, pues todos los interesados en ella ya saben inglés como lengua
materna o por haber aprendido el inglés como lengua secundaria. Puedes
decirme que es un problema transitorio, pero no será tan transitorio cuando,
como señala el propio George Boeree, pueden pasar años hasta que alguien
pone materiales en castellano sobre la Lingua Franca Nova.
Lo que ocurre es que el medio tiene que ser coherente con el fin. No se
puede abogar por el vegetarianismo hinchándose de jamón en las comidas de
trabajo sobre vegetarianismo, no se puede pedir el desarme al Irac cuando
quien lo pide se arma hasta los dientes con bombas atómicas, y no se puede
idear una lengua internacional para sustituir al inglés haciendo
precisamente todo el trabajo de elaboración en inglés.
Porque, al final, el tema político es ése, un tema muy vidrioso para
vosotros, los hablantes nativos de inglés: una lengua internacional
planificada, y realmente en uso masivo, significa el fin de los inmensos
privilegios mundiales que hoy gozáis los que habláis inglés fluidamente.
Y si me decís que no es eso, que estáis dispuestos a renunciar al inglés
en favor de la lengua internacional auxiliar, os responderé que prediquéis
con el ejemplo, y el ejemplo, en las discusiones sobre elaboración de
lenguas auxiliares, es intentar dirigirse al interlocutor en una lengua que
domine bien, en vez de eso tan cómodo para un anglo (y tan incómodo para su
interlocutor no anglo) de responderle en inglés.
Al que diga en inglés que soy descortés por responder a James Chandler
en castellano, le responderé que el descortés es él (el que me responda, no
James Chandler) por hacerme tal observación en inglés.
Pero el problema genera su propia solución: hablar en eurocriollo en
esta lista.
De Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo.

----- Original Message -----

Alexandre:

> You can be very quiet; I don't intend mining this list, Eurocreole,
>nor
>founding "rival" lists about Eurocreole.
> Rather, please tell me: Are yet ready an outline on Eurocreole,
>available in the Files section?

A good question, Alexandre, but you are jumping the gun a bit. I intend to
put together a description of the framework I am explaining on the list, but
only when I have finished giving the basic outline. I expect to do this in
the next couple of days, but I cannot give a date when the description will
be available online, as I have other commitments at the moment.
71
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:56am
Subject: Question words 		idojc
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Part of the creole prototype is that creoles tend to prefer bimorphemic
question words, analagous to Eng:

what time = when
what place = where
which person = who etc.

In IAL terms we already have an example of this question word pattern in
Novial:

quilok = vor (where)
quitem = quand (when) etc.

The most efficient and natural method is with a limited number of particles
which can be combined with adjs in bimorphemic questions:

tem - time
lo - place
om - person
kos - thing
manere - manner
kwanti - quantity

kwa tem - when
ta tem - then
omni tem - always
nuli tem - never
otri tem - another time

kelki om - someone
nuli om - nobody

ta manere - in that way, thus

pro kwo - for what reason, why
pro nuli kos - for no reason

kwa kwanti sukre? - How much sugar?

etc. The possibility of using any appropriate adj, such as 'otri', shows
that this method is superior to the rigid Esp correlative table.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=A79XzKqqcs_HDJJcWFQdSUv57Q70YZTNlQRWh71ZO2q4lhN1QYN7moChzf-LZAz5LPq9uw6jyg
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72
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:47am
Subject: An important particle 		idojc
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Another consequence of adjs being stative verbs, is that we can unify what
would normally be two or three separate nominalizing suffixes, by a single
particle which serves to nominalize any adj, verb (or noun used as a verb).

Thus in Ido we have the suffix -eso which produces a noun meaning the state
implied by an adj:

bela - 'beautiful'
beleso - 'beauty, state of being beautiful'
granda - 'big'
grandeso - 'bigness', or 'size'

ludar - 'play'
ludo - 'game, a play'

martelo - 'hammer'
martelagar - 'to hammer' ('act with a hammer')
martelago - 'a hammering'

Now in our sistem we will have adjs 'bele, grande', so we might reanalyze
Ido 'beleso, grandeso' as 'bele so, grande so'. This suggests a postposed
particle 'so' to indicate state:

mikro so - 'smallness'
verde so - 'greenness'
bon so - 'goodness'

But now adjs are just stative verbs, so we are logically justified in
applying the same particle to verbs. So we have also:

luda so - 'game, playing'
marcha so in li rure - 'a walk in the country'

There are some classes of nouns which we will need to use also as verbs. In
Novial these are the e/a/o words, eg.

telefone - telephone
telefona - to telephone
telefono - a telephoning

In our system we can, without ambiguity use the same form for the first two,
and use 'so' for the act:

Le va kompra nova telefon - 'He's going to buy a new phone'
Le va telefon a se frate - 'He will phone his sibling'
Li telefon so es kurte - 'The phone call is brief'

Nive sta fala - 'Snow is falling'
Pa nive longi tem - 'It snowed for ages'
Nos omni pa jua li nive so - 'We all enjoyed it snowing'

This little particle 'so' is therefore of central importance in tying the
whole sistem together.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=ERmucvqg4EHFRA6hf3bhQBAL3Cxb6kkeQsL7S_4USAqtx4j4lZeyyYkVsDybBfEIyzo_nrHe9t8PQgg
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73
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:51am
Subject: Fwd: Re: Hello, James. 		idojc
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Jay intended this for the list but it was sent only to me:


>From: "jjbowks" <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=ifQyZAMw3G-juyi1Uc6QVBPHpTI0cMNtclcbokUIwSAoVvi5bk4darOzXq6CJxUqn4zjvSvFieltSxlq0Fewwl1h-p4>
>To: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=lKgwoeSlcbGSBr2FopqWJsUZluXYVIVdCjmgPUu4sO0jjzV3Wxzta9TOzYeO0EeQNUr2Tvn0EZqvC6YujYrecq71Fo9aQyTd
>Subject: Re: Hello, James.
>Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 04:24:08 -0000
>
>/idojc/optima.html
>me parece que sus ideas
>sobre un "Eurocreole"
>seran derivadas un
>poco de las ideas
>ya mencionadas en
>esa pagina de Optima.
>
>El me puede corregir,
>claro, si los dos
>proyectos son ya
>bastante diferentes.
>
>Con saludos,
>Jacinto "Jay" B.
>
>--- In eurocreole@y..., "fasilinguo" <fasilinguo@y...> wrote:
> > Hello, James Chandler.
> > I'm Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo.
> > You can be very quiet; I don't intend mining this list,
>Eurocreole, nor
> > founding "rival" lists about Eurocreole.
> > Rather, please tell me: Are yet ready an outline on Eurocreole,
> > available in the Files section?
> > Thanks, Alexandre.




Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=bLbwaqwtYXW3JRGo6jznzUSmMSBinc9EnR69GAJR751oVNJZfVtFoQavAv_3qKAWbAwnN3em7g
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74
From: Nicholas Hempshall <nick_hempshall@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:23am
Subject: Re: An important particle 		nick_hempshall
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James Chandler wrote:
> In our system we can, without ambiguity use the same
> form for the first two,
> and use 'so' for the act:
>
> Le va kompra nova telefon - 'He's going to buy a new
> phone'

? Le va kompra un nova telefon.

> Le va telefon a se frate - 'He will phone his
> sibling'

? Le telefon = s/he telephones = her/his telephone

> Li telefon so es kurte - 'The phone call is brief'

? Li telefon so kurte.

Nick

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75
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 7:48am
Subject: Re: An important particle 		idojc
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Nick:

> > Le va kompra nova telefon - 'He's going to buy a new
> > phone'
>
>? Le va kompra un nova telefon.

No, if you recall we will have at most a definite article, but no indef.
art. (unless there is more to your suggestion that i think?)

> > Le va telefon a se frate - 'He will phone his
> > sibling'
>
>? Le telefon = s/he telephones = her/his telephone

Well spotted. This is indeed potentially ambiguous. The only other option
is to have a verbalizing particle, eg. 'go', so:

telefon
telefon go
telefon go so

but the particles then start piling up and this is not good. To be honest i
would rather insist on 'de' for pronoun possessives than change the
verbalizing/nominalizing sistem. I will have to give this some thought.

> > Li telefon so es kurte - 'The phone call is brief'
>
>? Li telefon so kurte.

You are right of course. I apologize for this crass mistake - it sort of
defeats the whole object of my explanation.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=kZrCYxlu8MJxN_9BG4oZALn8mVlZ9Wq-CZzPVm6iPIw_gZOmlR_bhrRg2SzMWB51dlqCr3rDnRjP
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76
From: "fasilinguo" <fasilinguo@yahoo.es>
Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 8:23am
Subject: Re: An important particle 		fasilinguo
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Hi James.
Is a de facto condition speaking and understanding English to discuss
Eurocreole?
Thank you very much, Alexandre.

----- Original Message -----
Nick:

> > Le va kompra nova telefon - 'He's going to buy a new
> > phone'
>
>? Le va kompra un nova telefon.

No, if you recall we will have at most a definite article, but no indef.
art. (unless there is more to your suggestion that i think?)

> > Le va telefon a se frate - 'He will phone his
> > sibling'
>
>? Le telefon = s/he telephones = her/his telephone

Well spotted. This is indeed potentially ambiguous. The only other option
is to have a verbalizing particle, eg. 'go', so:

telefon
telefon go
telefon go so

but the particles then start piling up and this is not good. To be honest i
would rather insist on 'de' for pronoun possessives than change the
verbalizing/nominalizing sistem. I will have to give this some thought.

> > Li telefon so es kurte - 'The phone call is brief'
>
>? Li telefon so kurte.

You are right of course. I apologize for this crass mistake - it sort of
defeats the whole object of my explanation.

Kordiale, James Chandler
77
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:24am
Subject: Re: An important particle 		idojc
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Alexandre:

> Is a de facto condition speaking and understanding English to discuss
>Eurocreole?

I am not aware of any such conditions for discussing Eurocreole, de facto or
otherwise. Furthermore I do not think that this list is an appropriate
place for a debate on how we make our forums more accessible to
hispanophones. Please ask this question on Auxlang where a full debate can
take place.

Danka so.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=2TJyk_KuyEKBY5ALT8P_ztXzuO8KvPIhtpnx-oCi9dF296I28chqpa2A0bi1OVNMXrx6k2rH5paxpw
http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
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78
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 2:29am
Subject: Plea for a debate, was: Fwd: Re: An important particle 		idojc
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I have a plea to make:

Can we _please_ have a full debate on this list (Auxlang) about what
languages we use as metalanguages for discussing IALs, and how to make our
forums more accessible to non Eng-speakers?

The reason is that Alexandre is raising this issue on every list he can get
into, and this is disruptive to the workings of specialist lists. And to be
frank, he is driving me up the wall and round the bend by constantly raising
this issue in different forums.

Many thanks.

>From: "fasilinguo" <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=kDynwRcfhzWpfSyy5PceR7s9D2RZIcuq6SsQf9n7mAwbKQV-UG3CzPvNyE3TcFjr5ZJqRRJ8Rje9PsHcCg>
>Reply-To: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=7WFCB7TGC2Rhr-fAQ81J_aq1aCbu0eEViqZzufAHKZUohyig_oznVLH55jpj7B1qKC-DIDJi8xrEHO8Cxne4qic2jFs
>To: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=7WFCB7TGC2Rhr-fAQ81J_aq1aCbu0eEViqZzufAHKZUohyig_oznVLH55jpj7B1qKC-DIDJi8xrEHO8Cxne4qic2jFs>
>Subject: Re: [eurocreole] An important particle
>Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:23:10 +0200
>
> Hi James.
> Is a de facto condition speaking and understanding English to discuss
>Eurocreole?
> Thank you very much, Alexandre.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>Nick:
>
> > > Le va kompra nova telefon - 'He's going to buy a new
> > > phone'
> >
> >? Le va kompra un nova telefon.
>
>No, if you recall we will have at most a definite article, but no indef.
>art. (unless there is more to your suggestion that i think?)
>
> > > Le va telefon a se frate - 'He will phone his
> > > sibling'
> >
> >? Le telefon = s/he telephones = her/his telephone
>
>Well spotted. This is indeed potentially ambiguous. The only other option
>is to have a verbalizing particle, eg. 'go', so:
>
>telefon
>telefon go
>telefon go so
>
>but the particles then start piling up and this is not good. To be honest
>i
>would rather insist on 'de' for pronoun possessives than change the
>verbalizing/nominalizing sistem. I will have to give this some thought.
>
> > > Li telefon so es kurte - 'The phone call is brief'
> >
> >? Li telefon so kurte.
>
>You are right of course. I apologize for this crass mistake - it sort of
>defeats the whole object of my explanation.
>
>Kordiale, James Chandler
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=O77sRqlEBpIj9qTRWXgH1hMbOdpAxTvEMAIpJ-QA4Ma88_Z1r36GlNpixh8yk6cKT70fdp9-bQaQhqF-FZOIksENP68aA4uE4_FC2-Y
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=qVrLE5qLPAdYQuyTDYZcYvO5FiADCO9vxxoIPmzIbZ9Es-4_2_qcMB249PG7lHbM5xR77-pEN5yDnW6q
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79
From: "fasilinguo" <fasilinguo@yahoo.es>
Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 4:18am
Subject: Re: Plea for a debate 		fasilinguo
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Hi James and hi all.
Rather than speaking and respeaking fruitless about the same, I'll explain the actual extralinguistick background on this issue.
To make big bussinesses around the world, English, this language wich I dislike, is nearly enough. There's always local translators, if paid.
To work in the field of human rights, as I do, definitely no.
We do know Amnesty International, Greenpeace and so on. These organizations, of course, are ruled by English-speakers, and we, the other, have a subordinated role in them. English is the sole global working language in Amnesty International, Greenpeace and so on. Mostly, human rights groups and progressive organizations have English and only English as international labour language.
This doesn't work at all.
We do need a common and easy language to work internationally pro human rights. But the language must be accessible now, not after five years, and it must be always changeable and enhanceable straightforward by users, according on needs and principles of human rights.
We, engaged ones on human rights, want a language to use it, not just to discuss about it, and even the creation stage must be really, not only formally, open to all interested people. To do otherwise acts, of course, against the basic human right to participate in the affairs which the individual is concerned with. The ellaboration of such a language only among English-speakers simply disrupts this basic human right, thus invalidating the process.
With you or without you, Anglos, we'll construct democratically such a language, open in construction and use from the beginning to us, the overwhelming majority of mankind who doesn't speak English well or just don't speak English. Of course you, Anglos, can participate in the process, but no privileges for you.

(Translation from my broken English into Spanish).

Hola a James y a todos.
Mejor que hablar y repetir infructuosamente lo mismo, explicaré el trasfondo extralingüístico actual sobre el tema.
Para hacer grandes negocios en el mundo, suele bastar el inglés, este idioma que me niego a usar. Siempre habrá traductores locales, si se los paga.
Para trabajar en el campo de los derechos humanos, definitivamente que no.
Bien conocemos a Amnistía Internacional, Paz Verde (Greenpeace), etcétera. Estas organizaciones, naturalmente, están regidas por hablantes de inglés, y nosotros, los demás, tenemos en ellas un papel subordinado. El inglés es la única lengua global internacional en Amnistía Internacional, Paz Verde y así sucesivamente. De modo predominante, los grupos de derechos humanos y las organizaciones progresistas tienen el inglés y sólo el inglés como lengua internacional de trabajo.
Esto no funciona para nada.
Necesitamos una lengua común y fácil para trabajar internacionalmente a favor de los derechos humanos. Pero la lengua debe estar accesible ahora, no después de cinco años, y debe ser siempre modificable y mejorable directamente por sus hablantes, de acuerdo a las necesidades y los principios de los derechos humanos.
Nosotros, los que estamos comprometidos con los derechos humanos, deseamos un idioma para usarlo, no simplemente para tratar o discutir del propio idioma. Ya la propia etapa de creación de tal idioma debe estar abierta a todos los interesados, y no sólo formalmente sino en realidad. Obrar de otra manera actúa evidentemente contra el básico derecho humano a participar en los asuntos que lo conciernen a uno. La elaboración de tal lengua solamente entre hablantes de inglés no hace más que bloquear este derecho humano básico, invalidando así el proceso.
Con vosotros o sin vosotros, anglos, construiremos democráticamente tal idioma, abierto desde el principio en su construcción y su uso a nosotros, la inmensa mayoría de la humanidad que no habla inglés bien o no lo habla a secas. Naturalmente que vosotros, los anglos, podréis participar en el proceso, pero sin privilegios debidos al idioma que habláis, el inglés.
Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo.

----- Original Message -----

I have a plea to make:
Can we _please_ have a full debate on this list (Auxlang) about what languages we use as metalanguages for discussing IALs, and how to make our forums more accessible to non Eng-speakers?
The reason is that Alexandre is raising this issue on every list he can get into, and this is disruptive to the workings of specialist lists. And to be frank, he is driving me up the wall and round the bend by constantly raising this issue in different forums.
Many thanks.

(Below appears my translation into Spanish from James Chandler's good English).

Tengo que hacer una petición.
¿Podemos, _por favor_ tener un debate completo en esta lista (Auxlang) sobre qué idiomas usamos como metalenguajes para discutir las lenguas auxiliares, y cómo hacer nuestros foros más accesibles a los que no hablan inglés?
La razón es que Alexandre está planteando este tema en cada lista en la que se puede meter, y esto bloquea el trabajo de los especialistas de las listas. Y para ser franco, me está poniendo entre la espada y la pared al levantar el caso en diferentes foros.
Muchas gracias.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
80
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 0:44pm
Subject: Alexandre 2 		idojc
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Having just replied to Bjorns personal note, I am beginning to feel that the
disruption Alexandre is causing is so severe, that all owners of specialist
lists ought to ban him, if he wont restrict his crusade to Auxlang
voluntarily. This would force him back to Auxlang and save the other lists
from having the same debates _ad infinitum_ (which is grossly inefficient
and a waste of everybodys time).

I am therefore considering excluding him from Eurocreole.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=3hLFqe2Qfk21b-VVQ8gnCs9KeJlWxoX9oxyqqdgR6iIGF3a0pY_Tc5Qn1_Dja5nPtsH0o2u4kg
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81
From: "fasilinguo" <fasilinguo@yahoo.es>
Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:22am
Subject: Why I leave the list Eurocreole. 		fasilinguo
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Hi James and hi you all.
I leave the list Eurocreole.
Why? Basically, to not be removed from it by James Chandler, the owner. As it's very known in lists about planned languages, he wants to silent me and he preaches my exclussion from as many such lists as possible. If I don't leave the list, he will kick out me very soon. He openly expresses here that he's considering my ban: "I am therefore considering excluding him from Eurocreole.".
I leave the list Eurocreole, but it don't leave the idea of Eurocreole, an idea which isn't an exclusive property by James Chandler, nor is copyrighted, either.
Moreover, I announce you two new lists on Lingua Franca Nova/Europidgin, whose announce, at any rate, would provoke my removal from this list, due to the known agreement between Bjorn and James to avoid new lists on Lingua Franca Nova/Europidgin who would break the monopole hold by Bjorn Madsen and by George Boeree.
The two lists are democratic, without exclussions. They're complementary; the first (Freuropidgin) is for everybody, and likely will stand mainly for native English-speakers; the second (Europichin) is only for Spanish speakers interested by Europidgin.
Eurocreole isn't a direct goal of these two lists, but it can be freely discussed and promoted in them, as any other auxiliary language.
If there's another people interested in Eurocreole, the foundation of a new list on Eurocreole, a democratic list and open to all languages, would be also interesting. I myself am not interested in a list on Eurocreole only by English language.

Below appears the description of both lists.


List "Freuropidgin"

Lingua Franca Nova is an international auxiliary language created by George Boeree. Lingua Franca Nova is simple, consistent, and easy to learn. It has a number of positive qualities: The vocabulary is rooted in modern Romance languages, completely regular grammar, phonetical spelling, and limited number of phonemes.
The goal of the Lingua Franca Project is to establish a community of people speaking a lingua franca for Europe and the world. The base is Lingua Franca Nova, but the project doesn't depend upon George Boeree, nor is "authorized" by him. The project is also called Europidgin Project.
Group members are encouraged to write in Lingua Franca Nova/Europidgin. All the other languages are accepted but not encouraged in this list, Freuropidgin (Free Europidgin). Usually (unless copyright issues would prevent it) the name of the projected language will be "europidgin".
Personal attacks here aren't allowed; but the freedom to dissent is complete. The list is democratic, owned by all users, and the big decissions (guidelines, deletion of messages, throwing out of a member, unfounding of the list, and so on) can only be taken by votation of the members.
The common e-mail to manage the list is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=6nM3w9zbl1uutgxtEzRkxSlu7m9dclAhtnhERmvMaTsyrA5sgz4W-iCjqdL3rGKcSEbD8LqnnQ1lT2_w, with the password tinico.

For more information visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freuropidgin/

Linguo Franca Nova esan una ausilinguo creata par Jorjo Bureo. Lingua Franca Nova esan simpla ei fasila de aprendar. Le aban varios cualitatos bona: Una listo de parolos vera fundada en la linguos neoromana, una gramatico vera regula, escribata como le sonan, ei una numero limitata de fonemos.
La ojeto de la projeto Lingua Franca Nova esan fundar una comunitato de popolo parlanta una linguo franca par Europo ei la mondo. La projeto aban inspirasiono en la laboro de Jorjo Bureo, ma non dependan de cuesa autoro, ni esan "autorisata" de elo. La nomo tipica de la linguo projetata eson, en la futuro, "europijino".



List "Europichin"

La Lingua Franca Nova es un idioma internacional auxiliar creado por George Boeree. La Lingua Franca Nova es simple, consistente, y fácil de aprender. Tiene cierto número de cualidades positivas: el vocabulario se basa en las lenguas neolatinas, con una gramática completamente regular, una ortografía fonética y un reducido número de fonemas.
El objetivo del Projecto Lingua Franca Nova es establecer una comunidad de gente que hable una lengua franca para Europa y para el mundo. La base es la Lingua Franca Nova, pero el proyecto no depende de George Boeree ni está "autorizado" por él. El proyecto se llama también Proyecto Europichin.
Se recomienda a los miembros del proyecto que escriban en Lingua Franca Nova/Europichin. En esta lista, Europichin, se acepta también que escriban en castellano. Usualmente (a menos que lo impidan problemas de derechos por marca registrada) el nombre del lenguaje en proyecto será "europichin".
No se permiten ataques personales aquí, pero hay una total libertad para discrepar. La lista es democrática y propiedad de todos sus miembros; las grandes decisiones (orientación general, borrado de mensajes, expulsión de miembros, disolución de la listas y así sucesivamente) sólo se pueden tomar por votación de sus miembros.
El correo electrónico común para gestionar la lista es http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=6nM3w9zbl1uutgxtEzRkxSlu7m9dclAhtnhERmvMaTsyrA5sgz4W-iCjqdL3rGKcSEbD8LqnnQ1lT2_w, con la contraseña tinico.
Para más información id a: http://es.groups.yahoo.com/group/europichin/

Linguo Franca Nova esan una ausilinguo creata par Jorjo Bureo. Lingua Franca Nova esan simpla ei fasila de aprendar. Le aban varios cualitatos bona: Una listo de parolos vera fundada en la linguos neoromana, una gramatico vera regula, escribata como le sonan, ei una numero limitata de fonemos.
La ojeto de la projeto Lingua Franca Nova esan fundar una comunitato de popolo parlanta una linguo franca par Europo ei la mondo. La projeto aban inspirasiono en la laboro de Jorjo Bureo, ma non dependan de cuesa autoro, ni esan "autorisata" de elo. La nomo tipica de la linguo projetata eson, en la futuro, "europijino".



Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
82
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 11:31am
Subject: Ambiguity in 'le telefon' 		idojc
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I have been giving a lot of thought to the ambiguity identified by Nick in
my system:

li telefon
le telefon
telefon so

I have been putting these patterns together in my head (and occasionally on
paper) for a year or two now, but this problem did not occur to me (which is
why this group is so valuable!).

I have decided that the above system is so good, and so central to the
language as a whole, that I would not want to change it. If necessary, I
would rather dispense with the possessive construction exemplified by:

le telefon = 'his/her telephone'

and use only:

li telefon de le

I wonder, as a last resort, whether it might be possible to retain this
construction, but advise people not use it with nouns that can be used as
verbs (instruments, weather phonemena etc.). I am quite attached to the
short possessive construction, and would be reluctant to lose it.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=cNLAOOoTHd098xxNx1q6jwSbcSbZzLIGjD6m0DL-DpERSXAywmmrEm09GUA4F0XogKTf2BBeHQ
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83
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 11:11am
Subject: Possessive and articles 		idojc
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Sorry to dwell on this, but I have been giving some more thought to the
ambiguity arising from the double meaning of 'mi telefon'

my telephone or,
I telephone

In my initial post on this subject I gave the example:

li kasa de li amike de li patro de mi

and pointed out that:

li kasa de li amike de mi patro

is significantly shorter. Looking at this sentence again, I am beginning to
think that if there is any excess weight in there it is the 'li's, not the
'de's. The articles dont seem to add anything to the overall meaning of the
sentence, as we can see my omitting them:

kasa de amike de patro de mi
'my father's friend's house'

I am having another look at Chinese at the moment, and that also makes me
wonder about the necessity of having any articles at all in a simple
isolating language. This is intimately tied to the question of the short
possessive construction, since the def. art. is implicit in it:

mi telefon = li telefon de mi

Perhaps it would be better not to distinguish between this and:

telefon de mi

after all, such a distinction will be rather alien to Chinese speakers. I
would like to propose that we dispense with both the def. art. and the short
possessive method. This now seems to me to be a real simplification, and
also makes the average sentence significantly shorter.

One reason I feel we are definitely able to do this, is that we have a
general, non-deictic demonstrative particle 'ta':

ta auto - 'that car'
ta auto ci / ta ci auto 'this car (here)'
ta auto la / ta la auto 'that car (there)'

Without a deictic particle, this demons. particle can easily substitute for
a def. art. if necessary:

komputore - 'a/the computer'
ta komputore - 'the/that computer'

I think this change will be the final move that makes the whole system snap
together. I commend it to the group.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=Ho8zXuoWLQS0Lo5SsD4rFpxpSZbr8YNryhD1QlA4fd9nnMhwU-UQP0Df6L4DrWRyLQQ4sUKlblkUk4o
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84
From: Nicholas Hempshall <nick_hempshall@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 0:33pm
Subject: Re: Possessive and articles 		nick_hempshall
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James Chandler wrote:
> I
> would like to propose that we dispense with both the
> def. art. and the short
> possessive method. This now seems to me to be a
> real simplification, and
> also makes the average sentence significantly
> shorter.
>
> I think this change will be the final move that
> makes the whole system snap
> together. I commend it to the group.

I think this is a great idea.

Nick

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85
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 3:56am
Subject: Negatives and affirmatives 		idojc
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We have already discussed the negative particle 'non', which immediately
precedes the word it negates (as in ClasLat, Chinese etc.). It is useful to
have a separate form for the response 'no', for which we can take the usual
IAL form 'no':

Ku vu veni de Bruxelles?
No, mi non veni de la.

Do you come from Brussels?
No, I dont come from there.

For the affirmative we can take the form 'ya' from Germanic languages:

Ku vu vada a butike?
Ya, mi vada a la nu.

Are you going to the shops?
Yes, I am going there now.

We can use the same form as an emphatic marker:

Ku vu non ave tri fem frate?
Mi ya ave tri fem frate!

Dont you have three sisters?
I do have three sisters!

(Note the method of forming the negative question.)

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=YNLfMLlGxMtvTdcdS8eKZZDO_Ba67XwAHuhdShJnmUofNDywtCk_86rXD7TFs3SypZywORmxkRw
http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
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86
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 6:40am
Subject: Sex particles (again) 		idojc
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I have already made use of the sex markers 'man' and 'fem'. Refreshing my
acquaintance with Mandarin, I am pleased to see that it has two parallel sex
particles, 'nan' and 'nu' (dont ask me to mark the tones!).

In previous examples I have used 'fem' on its own to mean 'woman (female
human being)'. I now think that these particles should be (stative) verbal,
so that they need to be followed by 'om' to indicate 'man' or 'woman':

fem om - 'woman'
man om - 'man'

In Mandarin one can say 'nan de' for 'nan ren' ('ren' being the equivalent
of our 'om'), but altho our 'de' is in some ways the equivalent of Mandarin
'de' (with the inverse order), it does not seem right to use a prepn. in
this way in our sistem.

Happily our constructions are exact parallels of the Mandarin ones:

nan pengyou - man amike - 'boyfriend (male friend)'
nu pengyou - fem amike - 'girlfriend (female friend)'

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=krZebdlkOZR1z2ON7F7yZofGz7L_big_aqEocWTV5iUzLbUHnJ2qDookhGq5ZpKs4qg6FpJG_57vCMQ
http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home

"I come from a country which does not yet exist." - J. Craveirinha


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87
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 7:43am
Subject: Affix equivalents 		idojc
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We now have the basic framework in place for the grammar of an isolating
language. The next task will be to prepare a summary or blueprint of this
grammmar. The final frontier which we have not yet approached is how to
provide equivalents of the various affixes in languages like Esp and Ido.

Prefixes do not present much of a problem. In general we can just adopt
them as preposed particles:

des agreable - 'disagreable'
des konkorda - 'disagree'
arki episkope - 'archbishop'
mis interpreta - 'misinterpret'
bo matra - 'mother-in-law'
pre dikte - 'predict'
ri aserta - 'reassert'
eks ministre - 'ex-minister'
par usa - 'use up'
retro vada 'go back'
dis rupta - 'disrupt'
sin hare - 'hairless'
vise presidente - 'vice-president'
non posible - 'impossible'
stif patro - 'stepfather'
seudo siense - 'pseudo-science'
kwasi re experimente - 'quasi-experimental'

Where possible these particles can now be more mobile in the sentence. For
example, 'ri':

Le pa fasa le ri - 'He did it again'

Mi sta rupta le dis - 'I am breaking it up'

'sin' is of course the prepn. 'without':

Le va voyaja sin mi - 'She will travel without me'

This post is getting a bit long so I will discuss suffixes in a subsequent
post.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=aCYTcordQ13yPW7QQ9Jgfha0PVMY194BeTN4XvjUNl0_ZmUpwJnwe3YYIqMRhHd0DtkWcUnSQw
http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home

"I come from a country which does not yet exist." - J. Craveirinha


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88
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue Oct 8, 2002 2:50am
Subject: Comparison 		idojc
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We can adopt the Ido-Nov comparative sistem _mutatis mutandis_:

ta ci min bon kam ta la
ta la plu bon kam ta ci

ruje flore tam bon kam blanke flore
auto de vu non tam bon kam auto de mi

num un kasa maksim bon
'the first house is best'

laste tren minim rapide
'the last train is least fast (slowest)'

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=XGOdGffCtw8g5pFkSDO9034gWBJpoKBvAtW6kn24kho3tDHz5A1PNuG0ZoIXOaAb-jh5PC7t9GVCs8AQ
http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home

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89
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 7:41am
Subject: Key suffix equivalents 		idojc
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Suffixes in general are more problematic than prefixes. The general trend
of the system so far is that attributive elements precede the qualified
word. There will be a number of different strategies for replacing the
function of any of the suffixes of Esp or Ido.

One of the most crucial suffixes in Ido is the adjectivalizing suffix -al.
In our system the will be a lot of scope for using unmodified sbs to qualify
other sbs, eg:

om bebe - human baby

But where the sense is clearly 'relating to', the particle 're' is
available:

re om siense - human science
re om istorie - human history
re nasion intereste - the national interest

or: intereste de nasion

In general the sense of 're' is similar to that of 'de':

siense de om ('science de l'homme')

This particle 're' can also be used as in Eng, as a prepn. meaning
'regarding':

Le voli parola kun vu re labora de vu
'He wants to talk to you re your work'

Another very important suffix is -ig, meaning 'make, cause to (be)'. In our
system we can take Nov 'fika', for use with both stative and non-stative
verbs:

fika ruje - redden, make red
fika re ofise - officialize

Le pa fika kavale kursa
'He made the horse run'

This is another example of the unification of verbs and adjs in a single
category.

Then take the suffix -an, meaning 'inhabitant or member of'. Where the
sense is inhabitant, we can simply use the region name with 'om', as in
Chinese:

Anglia om - Englishman (Mand: Yingguo ren)
China om - Chinese person (Mand: Zhongguo ren)
London om - Londoner

Where the sense is 'member', we can simply use the word 'membre':

membre de sosiete (Ido: societano)
membre de liste (Ido: listano)

For the suffixes -ism and -ist, we can do as in Eng and talk of an 'ism',
and extend that to an 'ist':

sosie isme - 'socialism'
reforma iste - 'reformist'

It is not possible in a single post to solve the whole problem of suffix
replacement, but hopefully this has illustrated some of the approaches that
are open to us in an isolating grammar.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=lpJQa34wD57ASP2BtA-BlY1UjcUWro2NB9SoLC36J7xOSP8khldg5KkmRqrhrVa1mXLnzIj8GRc
http://www.geocities.com/idojc - IALs index
http://www.geocities.com/idojc/yindex.html - Ido index
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/idolisto - Idolisto home

"I come from a country which does not yet exist." - J. Craveirinha


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90
From: "jjbowks" <jjbowks@adam.cheshire.net>
Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 9:26am
Subject: Re: Negatives and affirmatives 		jjbowks
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Kara James,
this differentiation
between No and Non
isn't really needed.
In a creole language
most unneeded
features would be
deleted. Just the
basics would be
fine. I'd suggest
that No be used
whenever Non
is used and there
isn't any loss of
meaning as a
result.

Doesn't Haitian
creole use "pa"
for no and not?
And Papiamento
uses "No", as in
Spanish I believe.

w/regards,
Jay B.

--- In eurocreole@y..., "James Chandler" <idojc@h...> wrote:
> We have already discussed the negative particle 'non', which
immediately
> precedes the word it negates (as in ClasLat, Chinese etc.). It
is useful to
> have a separate form for the response 'no', for which we can
take the usual
> IAL form 'no':
>
^
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